Journals of the Senate
48 Elizabeth II, A.D. 1999, Canada
Journals of the Senate
Issue 145
Monday, June 7, 1999
4:00 p.m.
The Honourable Gildas L. Molgat, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Austin, Balfour, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Gill, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kroft, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Maloney, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Perrault, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Roberge, Robichaud , (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan, Wilson
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, *Atkins, Austin, Balfour, Beaudoin, Berntson, Bolduc, Bryden, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Gill, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Kelly, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kroft, Lavoie-Roux, Lawson, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Maloney, Meighen, Mercier, Milne, Molgat, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Perrault, Poulin (Charette), Prud'homme, Roberge, Robichaud , (L'Acadie-Acadia), Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Rossiter, Ruck, St. Germain, Simard, Sparrow, Spivak, Stewart, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Whelan, Wilson
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some Honourable Senators made statements.DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Poulin, Chair of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications, informed the Senate that, pursuant to an Order adopted by the Senate on March 23, 1999, she had deposited with the Clerk of the Senate on May 28, 1999, the Report of the Subcommittee on Communications entitled: "Wired to Win! Canada's Positioning Within The World's Technological Revolution".-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1182S.The Honourable Senator Poulin moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration on Wednesday next, June 9, 1999.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ANSWERS TO WRITTEN QUESTIONS
Pursuant to Rule 25(2), the Honourable Senator Carstairs tabled the following:Reply to Question No 144, dated March 24, 1999, appearing on the Order Paper in the name of the Honourable Senator Cochrane, respecting the Millennium Scholarship Fund Board. -Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1183S.
MESSAGES FROM THE HOUSE OF COMMONS
A Message was brought from the House of Commons to return Bill S-22, An Act authorizing the United States to preclear travellers and goods in Canada for entry into the United States for the purposes of customs, immigration, public health, food inspection and plant and animal health,And to acquaint the Senate that the Commons have passed this Bill, without amendment. A Message was brought from the House of Commons to return Bill S-23, An Act to amend the Carriage by Air Act to give effect to a Protocol to amend the Convention for the Unification of Certain Rules Relating to International Carriage by Air and to give effect to the Convention, Supplementary to the Warsaw Convention, for the Unification of Certain Rules Relating to International Carriage by Air Performed by a Person Other than the Contracting Carrier,
And to acquaint the Senate that the Commons have passed this Bill, without amendment.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Motions
Pursuant to Rule 38, the Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella:That, in relation to Bill C-55, An Act respecting advertising services provided by foreign periodical publishers, no later than 4:15 p.m. tomorrow, Tuesday, June 8, 1999, any proceedings before the Senate shall be interrupted and all questions necessary to dispose of all remaining stages of the Bill shall be put forthwith without further debate or amendment, and that any votes on any of those questions be not further deferred; and
That the bells to call in the Senators be sounded for fifteen minutes, so that the vote takes place at 4:30 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. With leave of the Senate, Order No. 1 was withdrawn (Notice of Motion pursuant to Rule 39 concerning Bill C-55).
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Ordered, That the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology have power to sit while the Senate is sitting today, and that Rule 95(4) be suspended in relation thereto.Bills
Orders No. 4 and 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Reports of Committees
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, for the adoption of the Twelfth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications (Bill C-55, An Act respecting advertising services supplied by foreign periodical publishers, with amendments) presented in the Senate on May 31, 1999.After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, that the Report be not now adopted, but that it be referred back to the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications to hear witnesses on the amendments proposed, as the amendments radically alter Bill C-55.
After debate, The question was put on the motion in amendment. Pursuant to the Order adopted earlier this day, a recorded division was deferred until 4:30 p.m. tomorrow. The Senate resumed debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Carstairs, seconded by the Honourable Senator Callbeck, for the adoption of the Twelfth Report of the Standing Senate Committee on Transport and Communications (Bill C-55, An Act respecting advertising services supplied by foreign periodical publishers, with amendments) presented in the Senate on May 31, 1999.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Bills
Second reading of Bill C-32, An Act respecting pollution prevention and the protection of the environment and human health in order to contribute to sustainable development.The Honourable Senator Butts moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Milne, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Spivak moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cochrane, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Third reading of Bill C-71, An Act to implement certain provisions of the budget tabled in Parliament on February 16, 1999.
The Honourable Senator Moore moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kroft, that the Bill be read the third time.
After debate, In amendment, the Honourable Senator Bolduc moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, that the Bill be not now read a third time but that it be amended,
(a) on pages 10 to 12, by deleting Part 3; and
(b) by renumbering Parts 4 to 9 and clauses 20 to 50 and any cross-references thereto accordingly.The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Joyal, P.C., that further debate on the motion in amendment be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted. Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Callbeck, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cook, for the third reading of Bill C-72, An Act to amend the Income Tax Act, to implement measures that are consequential on changes to the Canada-U.S. Tax Convention (1980) and to amend the Income Tax Conventions Interpretation Act, the Old Age Security Act, the War Veterans Allowance Act and certain Acts related to the Income Tax Act.
After debate, The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate have passed this Bill, without amendment.
SPEAKER'S RULING
On Tuesday, April 27, Senator Kenny raised a point of order to object to some recent practices of the Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration and its subcommittees. Citing rule 91, the Senator noted that all Senators are entitled to attend and participate in meetings of any Senate committee even if they are not members. The Senator also stated that he had sent a letter to the Clerk of the Senate dated February 25, 1999 asking to be kept informed of any meetings of the subcommittees of the Committee. As well, he asked to be supplied with all agendas and working documents. Senator Kenny made this request, as I understand it, because of his conviction that every Senator has the right to attend the proceedings of the subcommittees as well as full committees.In explaining his point of order, Senator Kenny went on to claim that some of the subcommittees of the Committee of Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration had failed recently to follow the traditional practice of issuing notices of their meetings. He was therefore asking me as Speaker of the Senate to determine whether there is in fact an obligation to provide notice of any and all meetings, either of the full committee or of any subcommittee. Moreover, Senator Kenny asked me to determine if the Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration, or any standing committee, has the authority to permit its subcommittees to meet without any notice.
The Chair of the Committee, Senator Rompkey, responded by saying that he believed that the actions of the full committee and its subcommittees had complied with the current rules and practices. All Senators, he said, receive notice of meetings of the full committee and it welcomes the participation of any Senator whether or not they are members.
Senator Rompkey went on to state that the Committee's subcommittees have recently been revived to facilitate its heavy workload. Their role is to look into policy and to make recommendations for the consideration of the main committee. In carrying out their work, the subcommittees frequently meet informally, whenever it is convenient and often in camera. The Senator went on to explain that the subcommittees do not make any decisions on their own. The main committee must endorse any recommendation proposed by a subcommittee.
I have had an opportunity to review the relevant Rules of the Senate, to consider current practices, and I am now prepared to make my decision. Let me state from the start that this decision has been a challenging one. While many of the rules regarding committees have been a feature of Senate practice for years, few, if any, have been the subject of any ruling. Nonetheless, I believe I can provide some direction on whether there is a requirement for all committees and subcommittees to issue notices of any meeting they propose to have and under what circumstances those meetings can be held in camera.
Senator Kenny is certainly correct when he notes that rule 91 permits Senators to attend and participate in meetings of any committee. To put it another way, committees do not have the authority to exclude Senators from their deliberations. Nonetheless, there are some restrictions on the application of this rule that are well established. Non-members are prohibited from voting and they cannot move motions or be part of the committee's quorum.
In addition, rule 92(1), requires that, except for specified circumstances listed in (2), all meetings of Senate standing and special committees shall be held in public and only after public notice. By giving public notice, committees ensure that all Senators, as well as members of the general public, are informed of upcoming meetings. Historically, notice has been provided by a variety of means, ranging from posting paper copies of the notices in various locations on Parliament Hill to the current practice of putting them on the Internet and faxing them directly to interested parties. This rule certainly applies to meetings of standing committees such as the Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration whenever it meets in public session.
It is not clear from the Rules, however, whether any select committee is obliged to issue a public notice when the committee is to meet in camera under the provisions of rule 92(2). The language of the present rule suggests that there is no requirement to provide public notice for in camera meetings. Let me hasten to add that most committees do provide notices of their in camera meetings. Established practice seems to have filled-in for this apparent gap in rule 92(2) as adopted in 1991.
However, the notice requirements observed by committees, either by rule or by practice, do not necessarily apply to subcommittees. That it does not pertain to meetings of subcommittees is evident from rule 92(3) which states categorically that meetings of subcommittees shall not be subject to the requirements of rule 92(1). This means that subcommittees can choose to meet without public notice. Furthermore, rule 92(3) allows subcommittees to meet in camera at the discretion of the subcommittee members themselves. Subcommittees are not required, therefore, to seek authority from the main committee prior to making such a decision. This, I believe, answers one of the questions raised by the point of order.
Certain subcommittees, usually identified as steering committees that deal with agenda and procedure, routinely meet informally and in camera without public notice. Other subcommittees, those involved in conducting special studies, or for the purpose of hearing witnesses, usually meet publicly following public notice. The only time a subcommittee is explicitly required to sit in public session, according to the provisions of rule 92(3)(b), is when it is considering a bill clause-by-clause. For all other occasions, the choice to meet publicly or in camera is a decision of the subcommittee itself.
Accordingly, it would seem that the subcommittees of the Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration have not breached any rule of the Senate by meeting in camera and without public notice.
This conclusion provides the basis for what I believe to be the meaning of rule 91 understood in the context of other related rules and current practices. As was already explained, rule 91 allows Senators to attend meetings of committees. The rule, however, does not specify subcommittees which by practice have come to fulfil various support functions for the benefit of committees. I believe that Senators retain the right to attend and participate in meetings of subcommittees whenever they are meeting publicly. It is less clear that Senators have that right when subcommittees are meeting in camera for the purpose of considering issues that are subsequently reviewed and endorsed by the committee.
In my view, Senators do not have an undoubted right to attend these in camera meetings of subcommittees. The opportunity for them to comment on the recommendations that are developed by subcommittees will come when they are considered by the committee.
I realize that this decision depends upon an interpretation of several Senate rules and practices that might vary from the understanding held by some Senators. If this should prove to be the case, it would seem to provide an appropriate opportunity for the Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders to examine the rules and practices relating to the operation of committees. After all, committees are an important feature of the Senate and it is equally important that the rules relating to them be clearly and fully understood.
It is my decision, therefore, that the point of order has not been established.
Whereupon the Speaker's Ruling was appealed.
The question being put on whether the Speaker's Ruling shall be sustained, it was adopted on the following division:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Andreychuk, Austin, Beaudoin, Bolduc, Bryden, Butts, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, De Bané, Fitzpatrick, Fraser, Gill, Graham, Grimard, Gustafson, Johnson, Joyal, Kinsella, Kirby, Kroft, Lavoie-Roux , LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Maloney, Meighen, Mercier, Moore, Murray, Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Perrault, Prud'homme, Roberge, Robichaud , (Saint-Louis-de-Kent), Rompkey, Rossiter, Sparrow, Stewart, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wilson-52,NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Corbin, Kenny-2ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Spivak-1OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 6 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Private Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.Reports of Committees
Orders No. 1 to 5 were called and postponed until the next sitting.Consideration of the Eleventh Report of the Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and Orders (restructuring of Senate committees) presented in the Senate on June 2, 1999.
The Honourable Senator Maheu moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick, that the Report be adopted.After debate, With leave of the Senate, It was agreed that the clerical error appearing in the French text of the Report, in recommendation No. 2, "Size of Committees", part b, paragraph (q), be corrected by deleting the following words:
"composé de douze membres, dont quatre constituent le quorum".The Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Spivak, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Other
Orders No. 81 (inquiry), 114 (motion), 78, 68, 50, 34, 39, 64, 77, 73, 61, 46, 49, 44 (inquiries), 1, 118, 45 (motions) and 63 (inquiry) were called and postponed until the next sitting.Resuming debate on the motion as modified of the Honourable Senator Di Nino, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin:
That the Senate urge the Government of Canada to use its good offices to urge the Government of China to respect the right to self-determination and human rights of the people of Tibet and in particular to respect the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as well as resolutions of the UN General Assembly in 1960, 1961 and 1965 which affirmed these rights for the Tibetan people; and furtherThat the Government of Canada urge the Government of China to meet with His Holiness the Dalai Lama, without preconditions and under the auspices of the United Nations, to attempt to resolve the Tibetan problem.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Andreychuk moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rossiter, that further debate on the motion as modified be adjourned until the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Ordered, That Order No. 49 (inquiry) be again called.Resuming debate on the inquiry of the Honourable Senator Forrestall calling the attention of the Senate to the Liberal cancellation of EH-101, and the state of Canada's Labrador and Sea King helicopter fleets.
After debate, The Honourable Senator Stratton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Andreychuk, that further debate on the inquiry be adjourned until the next sitting.The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 47, 65, 69, 58, 59 and 67 (inquiries) were called and postponed until the next sitting.REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Actuarial Report of the Old Age Security Program as at December 31, 1997, pursuant to the Public Pensions Reporting Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. C-13 (2nd Supp.), sbs. 9(1).-Sessional Paper No. 1/36-1181.ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Carstairs moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Perrault, P.C.:That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.____________________________________
Changes in Membership of Committees Pursuant to Rule 85(4)
Standing Senate Committee on Aboriginal PeoplesThe name of the Honourable Senator Comeau substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Tkachuk (June 2).
Standing Committee on Privileges, Standing Rules and OrdersThe name of the Honourable Senator DeWare substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Kinsella (June 2).
Standing Senate Committee on Banking, Trade and CommerceThe name of the Honourable Senator Bolduc substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Angus (June 3).
Standing Senate Committee on National FinanceThe name of the Honourable Senator Gill substituted for that of the Honourable Senator Johnstone (June 3).